American Sake: Dassai Interview, October 2024

How many years was it, from start to finish, to build Dassai Blue?

President Sakurai-san approached the Culinary Institute of America in 2016. They were very interested in working together-- so after that meeting, he made an agreement to construct a brewery at Hyde Park in 2017. After that it was conceptualized, permits pulled, that took 2 years... so finally we could start construction September 2019. But of course, construction was suspended for over a year due to the pandemic. Restarted 2021 May, finished 2023 May. Kenzo Shimotori-san oversaw the construction from 2021 May.

During the pandemic however, we discovered the foundation was broken and repair took more than a year. The design was no good. In addition, the city determined that we needed a standalone water treatment facility for the waste water we would be producing, so we had to design and construct that on premises.

Tell me about your rice supply now and in the future? What is the proportion of American rice for each product?

Currently we make Dassai Blue 50, 23, 35. 50 and 23 are Japanese Yamadanishiki and 35 is Isbell Yamadanishiki.

In 2003, we brought from California the Yamadanishiki seed to Chris Isbell at Isbell farm. At that time, Kenzo was first introduced to Chris Isbell and this was during Kenzo's tenure at Takara USA. In 2003 Isbell was growing Yamadanishiki for Takara only.

Once we decided to open a brewery in the US, by 2019 we arranged to bring the original Hyogo Yamada Nishiki seed-- the authentic genetic material-- in through the FDA for the Isbells to grow.  So we had it tested for disease then sent to the University of Arkansas for review and assessment of fitness. Once it was approved we gave it to Chris Isbell the next year. Chris Isbell worked on propagating the seed for the next year-- the tanemomi- seed rice. By 2020 May we finally had enough Yamada Nishiki to iterate with, and we started to use the rice for sake brewing.

We purchased 200 tons of Arkansas rice from the 2023 harvest, which we started using Spring 2024 when the brewery began production officially. But we haven’t necessarily consumed it all, production has really barely begun. In the near future we want to increase the proportion of Isbell rice that we use relative to Japanese rice.

Last year due to climate circumstances the rice was very hard, so it was very difficult to handle in the brewery. Knowing that, we didn’t use that rice immediately after we received it: rice softens a bit over time as it rests.

In particular, management of wind in Arkansas is different compared to Japan. So in Japan we are more experienced with windy weather at harvest, which can weaken and break rice stalks and cause lodging. Even though the warming is affecting quality in both locations, in Japan there is not as much Northern wind coming so there is more ambient moisture in the fields. In contrast in in Arkansas it is hard to control moisture content in the rice and the grains dry quickly.

The starch structure of Arkansas rice is very different from Japanese rice, so we had to learn how to use it and how to take advantage of its distinct characteristics. Dassai's Yamadanishiki standard is different from other sake brewers, we want a smaller/more compact shinpaku, and centered in the grain. Other sake brewers only care about the large shinpaku. So the Isbell Yamadanishiki has to be evaluated according to our unique Dassai standard, where it performs well.

Dassai Blue 23- 100% Japanese yamadanishiki. This is our flagship product, so we want to make sure it is stable and consistent in the US brewery before we add new variables such as American rice.

Dassai Blue 35- 80% Arkansas Yamadanishiki (kakemai), 20% Japanese Yamadanishiki (kojimai)

Dassai Blue 50- 100% Japanese yamadanishiki. We started development and iteration on this first, and didnt have any Yamada Nishiki from Arkansas at that time.

We have been testing Arkansas for 23/50, but it's not ready yet.

Four times so far we've brought in containers of Japanese Yamadanishiki polished rice. 20 ton containers each, In winter without refrigeration, but in Summer a refer container at about 55 F.

Staffing

In Japan you can maybe hire experienced brewery staff and rice milling staff, but in the US that isn’t necessarily the case. Can you describe what it’s been like hiring staff for the brewery?

Right now we have 4 brewers from Japan and we have seven local staff who are under training. We have 11 people in production so far, but we are hoping that the local 7 will be the main core of the division and become the experts for Dassai Blue. Eventually, we are hoping and projecting for ~30 production staff. Hopefully, we can have the locals we've hired teach new hires as well. At Dassai we don’t hire for any expertise, we prefer brand new people who we can train from the start. What do we look for? Yasashii personality-- nice, friendly people who are easy to get along with!

Dassai Blue is the only American sake you can really find in Japan. What has the feedback been like?

Really effusive, very good feedback. Very bright aromatic and fresh, fruity and sweet. We believe that right now we haven't quite ironed out the identity of Dassai Blue yet. But the basic idea is that the nose is very similar, the brightness is very similar, but Dassai Blue should have its own character.

What is the case for American retailers to sell Dassai Blue instead of Dassai Japan?

Of course we want to sell both products, but we'd like to let the customer or retailer choose if you want to carry either or both. For this to be an authentic consideration, we have to compete with Japanese Dassai-- there needs to be a real case that Blue is better, more competitive.

The concept is competition with onesself. Dassai Blue is aiming to surpass Japanese Dassai. Domestic sales lead Makiko Hashida remarks that at sales events in the US, "whoever tastes Dassai Blue who knows Dassai already, they like Dassai Blue more because it’s lighter and has fresher character. I think Dassai Blue can pair better with the cuisine here because it’s fresher and brighter and contrasts well with American cuisine. Dassai Blue is 14% ABV vs. Dassai is 15-16%."

Because of the reduced distance, as far as price, Dassai Blue is slightly lower than regular Dassai: around $5 less on the shelf. But the point here is not to compete on price, but quality.

Refrigeration

In California, we just started to sell Dassai Blue 35 and 50 in late June. In New York there are more products: Blue 23 Nama, Nama 50 and Nama Dry, Blue Sparkling. But you see the shelf life of these is 2 months. It is necessarily a New York, East Coast product. Unfortunately by the time it gets to the west coast a month has passed, and now you only have a month left of freshness.

We emphasize refrigeration because we care about the quality control and rotation, avoiding UV, avoiding high temperatures. We only do single pasteurization after bottling so it needs to be refrigerated-- there are still potentially enzymes active after one moderate temperature pasteurization.  We sacrifice stability for quality and vibrancy. That’s why we recommend refrigeration to our buyers. The sales team always encourages refrigeration, hoping it will catch on in time. We also offer dummy bottles for the shelf-- lots of education and staff training.

But we know a lot of places have limited space, so we are also finding out how we can maintain quality without refrigeration.

Product pipeline?

More than producing a new product, we want to expand Dassai Blue to other markets: more states, more cities, more places. Many have never even seen Japanese Dassai before.

Technical details

Yeast- same yeast as we use in Japan, but to adapt to this market we changed a little bit of the ratio. We don’t use the single yeast, we blend and the ratio is different. 1801, 1401 and blend it, but depending on the rice condition and melting the proportion may change batch to batch.